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Matt Whiteley's avatar

You did it mate, a post on miracles I actually found interesting!

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Plasma Bloggin''s avatar

I find the discourse around Of Miracles to be one of the most frustrating parts of religion debates. Not even for the reasons brought up here (though strawmanning Hume also sucks), but because the arguments surrounding it always start up when apologists bring him up for no reason other than that it's easier to dunk on their interpretation of his argument than on the actual arguments being put before them. Every time you make an argument that even vaguely resembles Hume's case in Of Miracles (and the resemblance can be really, really vague), there are even odds or better that an apologist will step in and say, "Oh, that's just Hume's argument from Of Miracles. Don't you know that argument has been completely debunked and is stupid for all these reasons I'm about to list?" They won't even address your version of the argument because they assume that if they can refute Hume's version, that automatically refutes any argument that even slightly resembles it. This then leads to endless debates over whether they've really refuted Hume's case, but it's all irrelevant to the original discussion. Even if the strawman interpretation of Hume was more accurate to what Hume originally meant than the steelman interpretation, it wouldn't matter because apologists still have to address the steelman interpretation (or provide some evidence that isn't based on testimony) if they want to defend miracle claims. And even if both the strawman and steelman interpretations of Hume are bad arguments, they still have to address other arguments against trusting the evidence for miracle claims, rather than deflect by talking about Hume every time someone makes one.

Also, I liked the point about how everyone already agrees with Hume's actual argument, despite the endless attempts to dismiss him by debunking a strawman. It reminds me of the apologetic attempts to show that the saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," is wrong, despite the fact that everyone, including religious believers, implicitly understands it to be true when evaluating evidence for anything else. In this case, rather than strawmanning a famous philosopher, these arguments usually just use incredibly poor logic - typically, the apologist points to some claim with an extremely low prior probability, like, "The winning numbers for the lottery will be [some exact sequence]," says that the claim is "extraordinary" on the basis of its low prior, then points out a piece of evidence with an extremely high likelihood ratio that would get you to believe the extraordinary claim (e.g., someone reporting the winning numbers and reading out the exact sequence), and somehow not realizing that by their own definition of "extraordinary," the evidence presented would count as extraordinary evidence. These arguments are typically followed up with all the same condescension and overconfidence (acting as though their terrible arguments have completely destroyed the common saying, and that anyone who still uses it is therefore an unsophisticated rube), all while still using the actual principle the saying points out in their evaluations of evidence not in support of their religion, since the actual principle is obviously correct.

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